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More than you might imagine. Hi, everyone. I'm Chris Freeland, and I'm a librarian at the Internet Archive. In the Copyright Wars, historian Peter Baldwin takes us on a transatlantic journey across 300 years of copyright fights and skirmishes. No surprise. To fully understand the fights happening today, you have to look back at the legal and moral precedents set centuries before. Leading the conversation with Peter today will be Pamela Samuelson, the Richard M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law and Information at UC Berkeley. Pamela is a decorated scholar who has published extensively in the areas of copyright, software protection, and cyber law. Today's conversation is co-sponsored by Authors Alliance, and you'll be hearing from Executive Director Dave Hanson in just a few minutes. So here's something fun. The Copyright Wars was published eight years ago. Peter has designated that it be freely downloadable with a Creative Commons license at the Internet Archive, which Duncan is sharing out, will be sharing out in chat now. You can also purchase the book in print from the publisher, Princeton University Press, or of course your local bookstore. So I'd like to run through some basic logistics for today. We have automated captions available for our discussion. You can turn those on using the live transcript feature of Zoom. All registrants will receive an email tomorrow with today's recording. Yes, we are recording today's session. We will be uploading that to archive.org, preserving it there and making it available for everyone to view starting tomorrow. And of course, also the links that we're sharing out and the chat. So for those of you who are wanting to write down all the resources, don't worry. Everything that you see here presented in chat will be part of the recording package. So you can have those links afterwards. Now you can see that we do have the chat open. Please do be respectful in your communications today. Keep your comments on topic and do use the chat to submit questions for our panelists, which we'll take towards the end of our conversation. But for now, please keep doing what you're doing and use the chat to say hello and let us know who you are and where you're tuning in from today. I'll mention those of you. I see that there are a number of people who are frequent attendees at our book talks. You might notice that I'm in a different spot. I'm actually in Mishawaka, Indiana right now at our literacy partners, Better World Books. I came here to celebrate a holiday party for the workers who help the Internet Archive in making books available through our controlled digital lending environment. So glad to be here today and glad to be here part of this conversation. So as we get started, I would I would like to welcome Brewster Kale, the Internet Archive's founder and digital librarian to the screen for a little context setting. Brewster, are you there? Thank you very much, Chris. And thank you very much for everybody for coming today. I think of these book talks as my fantasy dinner party, right, where you get to go and have your favorite people have a conversation with you and around you that you've always wanted to happen. So I read Peter Baldwin's book and it blew my mind. It was I mean, I've read a lot about copyright stuff, but it's always been sort of the same, same, same. But this is really a different perspective of how did we get into this mess and where where are the conflicts over time that made it so that we're kind of having these these issues that were that we're having. So I'm very glad you're here. I actually like physical books myself. Highly recommend it. But it's great to be able to search it online. So thank you, Peter, for making this available. So thank you all for for coming today, Chris. Thanks, Brewster. Yeah, I'm the same way. You know, I love digital books. I love the the ease and the utility of digital books. And I love to read and print when whenever possible. So I also have a physical copy of the copyright wars in addition to being able to search and search through the text. Thanks to Peter making the book available at the Internet Archive. So it's now my pleasure to welcome Dave Hanson to the screen. Dave is the executive director of Authors Alliance and he's going to set the stage for today's discussion and also introduce our speakers. So over to you, Dave. Thanks, Chris. So and thank you all for joining. This is a really great turnout. This is our third author talk that we've done this fall with Internet Archive. And I think we're hitting pretty close to record participation. So so we're really excited to be able to do this series with Internet Archive. Authors Alliance is a nonprofit organization formed in 2014 with the mission of advancing the interests of authors who want to serve the public good by sharing their creations broadly. Our vision and voice are really unique among organizations participating in debates around copyright and free expression and fair use and other public policy issues. I joined Authors Alliance as executive director this past summer. For that, I formerly served as lead for copyright and information policy at Duke University and I was responsible for their library collections and research services. And a big reason why I joined is because Authors Alliance really is the only nonprofit membership based organization that really represents the public interest minded authors perspective on issues relating to information policy. And I think many of you on the call know that there there's a really alternative narrative out there and we provide an alternative to that to the to the protectionist positions of entertainment and big media lobbyists. And as we're going to hear about in a bit, you know, there is this ongoing war as described in the book and ongoing and debate with very different perspectives on what the law should look like and how it should benefit authors and creators and publishers and the public. So, so if Authors Alliance and our mission sounds like a description of your interest, we would really love to have you join us. Membership is free. It's a great way to help us represent your interests and amplify your voice. So you can click the link there or type in that link and love to hear from you. So now it is my pleasure to introduce Peter Baldwin and Pamela Samuelson. So first, Pam, Pamela Samuelson is the Richard M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law and Information at the University of California, Berkeley. She's a pioneer in digital copyright law, intellectual property, cyber law and information policy. Since 1996 she's held a joint appointment at the Berkeley Law School and UC Berkeley School of Information. And she is the director, a director of the internationally renowned Berkeley Center for Law and Technology. And among my favorite of her many, many achievements is that she is the co founder and chair of the board of Authors Alliance. And Pam will be in conversation today with Peter Baldwin. Peter Baldwin is a historian and professor at UCLA. His interests are in the historical development of the modern state. He's published many works on the comparative history of the welfare state, on social policy more broadly, on public health and on the history of copyright. He's the author of The Copyright Wars, Three Centuries of Transatlantic Battle, the book we're here to talk about today. His other recent works include Command and Persuade, Crime Law and State Across History by MIT Press. And a forthcoming book that I'm really excited about titled Athena Unbound, Why and How Academic Knowledge Should Be Free for All forthcoming from the MIT Press. And I'm also very proud to say Peter is a member of the Authors Alliance Advisory Board. And with that, I will hand it over to Peter to give a brief overview and intro and take it away. So thank you. Thank you very much. It's, you know, almost 10 years since the book came out. A lot has happened in the meantime, and I'm very lattered to be asked to do this and amazed at the interest and grateful to Pam for being willing to take on this conversation. Of course, Pam, I've been reading your stuff for a long time now. So you're a real player in this field and I'm an outside observer. But what I can bring is possibly a kind of historical perspective to it. If you look back at the history of copyright, copyright is today largely the same system everywhere in the world. Term lengths differ slightly among jurisdictions. You know, fair use is a bit less generous in some places than others. The first sale doctrine doesn't always allow the lending of the same content in all places. But this is fairly minor kinds of differences among the various systems that exist in the world. But this uniformity that we see now was not always true historically. When copyright first began in the early 18th century in England and then spread from there, copyright was approached very differently in different jurisdictions. The fundamental point of intellectual property and copyright is to accomplish two effectively contradictory goals. First of all, it is to offer creators some guarantee of profiting from their efforts. And to that end, creators are offered a temporary monopoly during which they can exploit their work. But the return on that promise, the return for society, is that once the period of temporary monopoly is over, of course, the work then joins the public domain and is available for anyone to use. Now, that means that copyright is effectively two faced and it can go in opposing directions. It can either be focused on the creators and their rewards on the one hand, or it can be focused on the public domain and what the audience expects in the way of having content delivered. And depending on how you formulate copyright, it can emphasize one aspect or the other. Now, throughout the 18th century, when copyright first began, these two sets of interests were largely held in balance. Terms were short. At first they were just 14 years and only a few kinds of works were protected, mainly writings. But having won this beachhead, creators and their disseminators strove for more. If novels and essays and plays were protected, you know, why not engravings of music? And if these works were protected for 14 years, why not longer? And if they were protected against being reprinted, why not against other uses like translation or Bridgeman or editing or otherwise being used for derivative works? All these other uses were eventually protected as well, which meant that any such use required permission and payment to the author. So protection lengthened in duration, to the point we've arrived at now, where it is basically a life of the author plus 70. And protection broadened in scope, to the extent that every conceivable creative act is protected the instant it occurs without having to undertake any formalities or registration, that sort of thing. So it's a huge expansion of rights for the authors in two directions. Now, in this process of expanding, different nations took different approaches, depending on whose claims they took most seriously, whether they were most interested in the author's claims or most interested in the audience's claims. And on the whole, looking back historically, it's fair to say, and this is what the bulk of the book deals with, that continental Europe favoured the interests of creators and gave them ever longer and broader powers. And this is what I in the book call the author's rights tradition. The author's rights tradition regards creators as having a natural law property right in works, which in theory should mean that they own them in perpetuity, but if not perpetually, at least they own them for a very long time. And in contrast to this, we then had the copyright tradition, more narrowly defined, a specific use of the term copyright here, which in the 18th and 19th centuries was adopted basically in the Anglo-Saxon nations in the UK as well, but above all in the US. And this copyright tradition emphasised the interests of the public in cheap, easily available enlightenment. It argued that authors had no more rights in their works than anyone has natural rights in tangible property, and it's only by virtue of the state policing property rights that they can be enforced at all. And in return for the state enforcing limited rights to exploit their property, authors therefore had to surrender it eventually to the public domain. Let me give you just two very brief examples, historical examples, of how the contrast between these traditions worked itself out in practice over the 19th and 20th centuries. During the 19th century, the US refused to grant foreign authors copyright protection at all. That allowed US publishers to print bootleg editions of European writers at cheap prices. The US in the 19th century had the largest literate reading public in the world, and these publishers wanted to exploit. So American editions were massive and they were cheap, entire novels were published in periodicals, Charles Dickens was serialised on the back of railway trying timetables, and effectively education and enlightenment was spread as cheaply and as widely as possible, thanks to the European authors having no copyright. It was only toward the end of the 19th century that the US finally conceded foreign authors protection, and that happened when some US authors, people like Harriet Beecher Stowe and Mark Twain and Walt Whitman, when some of these American authors became popular in Europe, and American publishers discovered what it meant to be the victims of pirated editions. In other words, the change happened, the change to giving European authors copyright protection in the US, the change happened when the US became a cultural exporter and when its publishers shifted interest. The US then took the first of many steps towards the European view of authors rights that has since come to dominate intellectual property. That's the first example. The second example, and this is sort of from the other side of the spectrum, has to do with moral rights. Moral rights were emblematic of the European approach. Authors were given almost total control over their works, they could prevent them from appearing, except precisely as they wanted, and they could prevent works and any uses of their works. In the most extreme case, authors were given a withdrawal right, that is to say they could withdraw works from the market and forbid their use even after they had been published. In practice, this didn't work out very realistically, but in theory it was a right that they were granted. So just as one among many examples, in 1954, the French band Carmen Jones, which was the film by Otto Preminger of Bizet's opera, Carmen, and the reason they did so was that Bizet's heirs found that Carmen Jones, which was set among Black Americans, they found this to be a setting that was unworthy of the now dead master. Now, these sorts of contrasts between, on the one hand, the author's rights tradition and the copyright tradition, peaked during the middle decades of the 20th century, and since that time, the two sides, the Anglo-Saxon nations and the European continental nations, have begun to approximate each other largely in tune with how the Anglo-Saxons have adopted the author's rights approach. This change was driven, above all, because the US content industries eventually became the world's biggest cultural exporters during the latter half of the 20th century, and they therefore developed an interest in strong protection for their property, much as the Europeans had had earlier in this period that we're looking at. The Google Books Project demonstrates that this transatlantic divergence still exists, even though it has been moderated. When Google presented its plans in 2004, the European reaction to it was hostile, author's rights were being violated, this was the European position, the Anglophone cultural molloch was seen as once again trying to dominate the world. And we can also see a sort of resonance of this dispute in the discussions over the Safe Harbors provisions of how content that is posted on the web is treated. Safe Harbors give content disseminators some protection against claims of infringement for the works that they post, and the EU is now in the process of clamping down on these kinds of liability exceptions, while in the US the debate about this has only just begun. And that brings us to the question of open access, because if you look at the historical trajectory, you might expect there to be a broader divergence on open access between Europe and America than in fact there seems to be. In theoretical terms, it's true that the debate over open access was started earlier and in many ways conducted much more fervently in the US, but in practical terms the European seem to have beaten the US in the race. The EU has now, by now passed an orphan works law that allows orphan works to be digitized, for example, even though at the same time it demands payments for authors. And of course plan S which mandates gold open access for academic research is a European initiative that has gotten fairly widespread support in Europe, they're not uniformly and only in some extent in this country. So an interesting question, and I won't try to answer it now, I'd leave that for the discussion instead is given this historical trajectory with the two divergent approaches to copyright. Why is it that with open access, in fact, the Gulf seems to have narrowed somewhat and the two sides have reached some kind of rapprochement. So let me stop there for fear of monopolizing what time we have. Well, I want to start by saying thank you Peter for writing that book. I think, while I have been familiar with a good part of the history of the copyright wars in a. There were so many details about those. The ways in which copyright has been, from my standpoint misused that I didn't know about so you've given me a lot of examples to work with. And so thank you for that. But also, I, I think, as Brewster suggested, so many of us think that the copyright wars of the modern era are completely new. And I think you have done such a good job and helping us kind of understand that, hey, this has been going on for hundreds of years and you know it waxes and wanes back and forth. And we are in today, a little bit of a lull. But as somebody who is a very active participant in the copyright wars in the 1990s. I can tell you that for those of you who are just in junior high school at that point. That was actually really really hard fought and the Clinton administration in 1994 1995 would have had copyright essentially. So broad that the internet would practically have to be shut down. So, every temporary and every permanent copy of works would be within the exclusive rights of the, of the rights holder. And so, for example, if the ISPs would be strictly liable for every infringing copy of every infringing work that might be on their system. And there would be no need for fair use because because everything could be licensed and that was kind of the picture that not only the Clinton administration supported but also there was a draft international treaty the wipe a copyright treaty in 1996. The draft treaty would have made all of those exclusive rights. And then they would have made expansions into an international norm. Now, this is actually a good example that fighting back against the high protectionists can sometimes be successful and so the wipe a copyright treaty that finally got adopted in 1996 was actually a pretty good one. So they dropped the temporary copy as a norm. They dropped the ISP strict liability rule, and the wipe a copyright treaty. Not only said you can continue to use the exceptions that are in your national copyright law now but also new exceptions can be can be added so this was actually a place where some of the US representatives to the wipe oh treaty, some of the Nordic nations some Africa, and some from Asia, kind of got together and said, Hey, this high protectionist international treaty draft. We don't want any part of it. And so, this was actually a place where there was something of a victory now. I do, you know, I when when it comes to the digital millennium copyright act. We didn't win everything, but, but the ISP safe harbors has been enormously important to the growth of the internet economy and allowing the the hosting of content on sites. Everything from YouTube to WordPress, and we're very happy that the that the DMCA safe harbors has not only protected the interests of the platforms that that provide this space but also has enabled users to be able to make fair uses. And, you know, the platforms don't have to take anything down until and unless the copyright owner identifies what works have been infringed and then the platforms have a responsibility to investigate and take it down if the claim is is solid but it does seem to me that the DMCA wasn't far back. I hate the anti circumvention rules but but even they have been modified considerably because Congress put in a provision that allows the Copyright Office essentially to grant new exemptions to the anti circumvention laws, and so we both were enabling print disabled access to works. And most recently, author's alliance helped to get an exception for text and data mining so we can basically digital humanity scholars can now do text and data mining on DVD movies and on ebooks as, even though they're technically protected so. So, so there are there are some good things that have resulted from these wars, but unfortunately the wars are not over. Pamela, I wonder if what you would your description of the DMCA and the Millennium Copyright Act in the battles over that highlight something that from a sort of a longer historical perspective is one of the key aspects to copyright and you know the hopes for channeling reform in the right direction, and that is that there really aren't very many unified actors in this game or rather there are a lot of actors with different with different interests so even authors don't have a single voice because you have what one might call you know primary authors who create something above all by themselves, and who think that they own it and and they deserve rights for it. But then of course you have derivative authors who the British film directors playwrights, you know who use other authors works and want to have free access and want to have post modern reception theory and so forth and the audience becomes a creator in its own right and also has an interest in using the work so so even the authors category isn't isn't isn't unified and nor of course is that of the disseminators because you have the disseminators who publish to stick with books. The primary authors and they share more or less the same interests as the primary authors, but then you have the reprint publishers in the 19th century who were desperate just to you know put out as much stuff as they possibly can as cheaper prices you can, and during the battles over the digital millennium copyright act that split was effectively reenacted in the split between, on the one hand, Hollywood and the content owners and producers, and on the other hand, the internet interests in Silicon Valley, the ones who disseminated the information and didn't want it locked down effectively reflected the same split that you had in the 19th century between the primary publishers and the, and the reprint publishers and so this civil war that you effectively had between northern California and southern California was what, you know, allowed the, the, the Clinton, what prevented the Clinton administration. You remember how, how buddy buddy Clinton was with Hollywood. It prevented the Clinton administration from steamrolling that through without getting precisely things like safe harbors which is effectively the mechanism by which the content owners and the content disseminators have been reconciled to each other. I very much agree with you that the interest of authors are not uniform, nor are the interests of disseminators, but there are, as you say, some loud voices there. One of the reasons why I was motivated to to co found authors lines was because it really made me angry when the authors guild, which is made up of mostly people who want to commercialize their works and I think that organization has every right to exist, but they would basically say, hey we represent the interest of all authors. And so when they brought these lawsuits, first against Google for the Google Books scanning program, and then against how to trust the, the digital library of library copies that that libraries got back from Google copies of the works that Google had copied from their collections. They were basically saying, oh we represent the interest of all authors and I said no you don't. And so I filed a couple of briefs actually with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. One claiming that you shouldn't actually grant the class action status that that authors guild was seeking and second that authors Alliance has members who want their works to be found and Google Books allows people to find our works and therefore that should be part of the reason why this is fair use. And I'm pleased to say that although that was another very very very hotly fought debate that we were able to persuade the Second Circuit to vacate the class action status and also we helped persuade them that it was fair use for Google to scan this for text and data mining purposes and to enable search through the snippets that they serve up to, to people who are searching for something about Buffalo New York, or something else so it's been exciting to see that, you know, if you if you got it takes some action sometimes it really can make a make a big difference in the world and you know I think that Peter's book gives us a reason to think that, you know, this is an ongoing struggle but you know we're in a pretty good space at the moment, not a great one but a pretty good one. And, Peter I very much agree with you about the divergence between Europe and, and the US and I agree with you also that there's been some significant conversions and the US has moved more toward the European approach but fair use is actually an example of, of a concept that Europeans have yet to swallow at least some of the academics I know would like fair use to happen. But so far, not really happening, and the Europeans are clamping down now through new directives and new regulations to, you know, there was about a 20 year period in which the US and the EU, both adopted the safe harbor approach. And now they're basically the Europeans are saying, well that just allowed too much infringement to happen so we're not going to let that happen anymore. So, the, you know, the, the divergence has gotten more significant. And it's going to be interesting to see whether that leads to more legislative activity in the US so far not, but it's a, you know, maybe it's in the early stages of transition. Well, this is one of those issues where when once one is in favor of some political inertia, and nothing changing. In our case, but I mean in the case of the US. But so you raise an interesting question here, again, broadening this issue of the splits among creators and their divergent interest. We take this into the open access field which is, you know, a topic of more recent interest. This is sort of the real the big third rail issue that often doesn't come up because the moral argument for open access is really nothing other than for those authors who have been paid already in another form for your work, especially if you've been paid by taxpayers, which is the case for almost all scientific and certainly all academic researchers. There's no particular reason why you should be paid again for selling the product of what you've already been paid to do in the first place. So the division now becomes not between primary and derivative authors, it becomes between academic authors on the one hand, for whom open access is to me, it seems to me a moral imperative, and all the freelance or whatever we want to call them independent authors who actually have an ambition whether realized or not to live from their work, for whom, as far as I can see there is no good moral argument to be made that they should open up their work nor any economic logic as to how they should be able to do it. There are obviously of course public interest arguments, you know, networking arguments and usefulness to the audience and all that sort of thing I mean, obviously it'd be great if every novelist made their novels freely available. But I just don't see the moral argument there. Society might be better if that were the case but I don't see how one could go to people who expect to live from their work or want to try to live from their work and tell them they have to open it. So the new divide that's opened up is between academia on the one hand and independent cultural producers on the other. And the odd thing is, and I talk about this in my new book at some length, academia is not at all particularly in favor of open access or not nearly as in favor of it as it ought to be. And when I say academia, I mean in particular humanities and social sciences here because scientists, that's a whole different kettle of fish and science is, you know, well on the way to becoming fully open access, and in another 10 years max, it will be and there's no particular secret as to why that's the case. They have the funding to do so. It costs you know 2% of research costs to make articles and whatever books that scientists write open access it's just it's a rounding hour for them in terms of funding, but for the humanities and social sciences, of course, it's a major issue. And those scholars are not the ones who are leading the fight for open access as they ought to be. If anything, they're in the, in the area guard and, you know, bringing up the rear rumbling all the way as they're sort of dragged into the open access future. And it's a very interesting sort of dispute to see a group of people, my peers and colleagues who want to be on the right side of things but who aren't. I think that's exactly right. The, the humanities scholars and the social science scholars, I think, more humanities than social science, at least in my experience there are people in some of the social science fields who who embrace open access. One problem has been that the scholarly societies have supported themselves through exclusive rights that they get from authors who publish in their journals and since those journals. Very often are the high prestige journals, where I have to place my, my work in this particular journal in order to be able to be sure to get tenure. And the, you know, the scholarly society says you got to give me your copyright and they have to, you know, pay the salaries of the staff. Through that so that's, that's another one of the impediments so I don't think this, the, at least some of the social science scholars are fighting open access so much as they are like, we're trapped right we we we're trapped because of the, the need to be in these journals and as long as those journals are basically proprietary, we feel trapped. So it's been especially difficult for those people to, to find their way to open access but even so I think that there are now efforts in some of those fields anyway to, to open up a little bit more. Now, one thing that we haven't sort of mentioned but I think is worth mentioning is that open access has actually provided some competition in the copyright space that didn't exist before. And it's provided an opportunity for especially scholarly authors who published their monographs. They're now able to negotiate often with their publishers that, hey, we're going to have a five year window in which the, the book is basically available for for purchase only. But after that, because usually the, the, the, that five years three to five years is kind of the window in which, generally speaking, people are able to kind of essentially enjoy the fruits of the copyright, but after that we can make it available on an open access basis and so that's been something I think that, you know, it's been a leverage for for authors that they didn't used to have. And I think that's been a good thing. Now, one thing that I wanted to highlight here and this is a, you know, the latest skirmish in the copyright wars. And, and that's the, the fight over control digital lending. So, as many of you know the publishers of popular books. Want to make their books available digitally only through licensing and only in highly restricted formats. And so it seems to me that one of the things that the libraries have been able to do not be able to like purchase these ebooks and lend them the way that the that books have been lent traditionally by by libraries, but they've been experimenting with control digital lending and the Internet Archive was the was the sort of the instigator of this particular initiative, which has been picked up by many libraries and endorsed by a number of scholars as well as other people, and that allows if you own a physical copy of a book, then you can scan that book and lend the digital copy. And you have to do it, you know, you can't you can't digitally land more copies than you actually own and when somebody does a digital land, it only lasts for two weeks, and, and also with technical protected so that you can't make further copies of it. And this is kind of an effort to essentially accomplish lending by libraries the way that they've traditionally been able to do, but has set and several other publishers have sued the Internet Archive over this, and the case is now pending in a court in New York City. And this will be the big fair use battle of the of the decade. Yes, no, we all await the outcome on tenterhooks to see what because it will make a huge difference in terms of what the strategy will be going forward. If there's a loss here that would be quite significant. Even more outrageous when it, if we look at digital editions and libraries is the way in which publishers force libraries to pay more for the digital editions that they lend them, then the retail consumer and of course the libraries argument is well you know library owns physical copy of a book and after it's been let x number of times, they get stattered and they have to buy a new one. And so they build into these library licensing arrangements, you can lend it x number of times and then you have to pay again, or if you want a permanent copy that you don't have to renew all the time you have to pay, you know, often three and four times the retail price of it. But of course there's a lot of dispute as to how long does a physical book actually last in a library's hands and you know the publishers will tell you, you know, 12 lens and it's gone and the libraries will tell you you know 112 lens and still there. And so obviously there's a lot of back and forth there, but it's almost as though the logic of the publishers is, you know, they want to be paid per land, not per book and so you know if the car manufacturers were to sell their cars according to the same logic. If you sell a car to a family with four children it's going to cost more than if you sell it to a bachelor which makes very little sense in the modern capitalist market. So there's, there's some other dispute there that has to be ironed out and we're far from having achieved any resolution. Well and unfortunately the Even though there have been some states that have passed laws that are kind of consumer protection laws that that that try to regulate the way in which digital ebooks are are licensed publishers go after that and say oh that's preempted by copyright law we have this exclusive right so I'm not there's Alliance is hoping to work with other organizations to try to figure out what consumer protection rules. We can promote that would not get preempted because it seems to me that the idea that, you know, libraries of the future. Are all digital right I mean for a lot of my students, if it in the in digital form it might as well not exist. And, you know, the future of libraries is really at stake in cases like the hashtag lawsuit against the Internet Archive and I think that, you know, Internet Archives lawyers are doing a very good job trying to help the court see the bigger picture here. But again, authors Alliance represents the interest of authors who basically say, hey, we like libraries libraries are really important to us and access to the cultural heritage of of humanity is something that libraries enable and we need that to continue to we need that to continue to exist. So, hopefully, the courts will will see that this isn't about theft this isn't about piracy. This is about access to cultural heritage, which, you know, the Constitution in the United States basically says this is supposed to be about promoting the progress of science and useful arts as to say about promoting access to knowledge, and the Supreme Court at least so far has basically said that the interest of the public in access to works is the primary goal of copyright, not the reward to authors and not to have exclusive control over everything. Well, that you raise the the elephant in the room question as far as libraries is concerned because once everything is digitized. You know, what what role exactly are they going to be playing. You think about when I was a teenager and desperately wanted access to more music, more, more than I could afford. I once lived for a while in a jurisdiction where it was considered okay for libraries to lend music, you could go and lend records that's not the case everywhere. They were of course, old and scratchy and a little bit better than nothing but not by much but that was the technology that was used to build musical music and Spotify, effectively, whatever role libraries might have played in the summation of music has been completely sidestepped, and they played absolutely zero role, and the private sector has arranged that old very nicely, and apparently to the satisfaction of the average consumer. And the question is, is something similar going to happen to books, where we just, you know, sidestep the libraries altogether. Well, I think libraries have a big role to play in the future, at least I'm, I'm a big believer in that. It seems to me that there are, I'm not the only one who actually really likes physical books and likes to be in a place where you can actually look at the stacks and see what other books are next to this one. And that's a little harder to do in, in digital form you'll more or less have to know what you're looking for. And this kind of serendipity of the, of the actual physical library I think is a is is an important function that is played but also as a community center, right, at least when I was growing up. There would be readings right there would be sort of events where the libraries could be a community space. And I think that space is still quite valuable and again for authors, it was a way of enabling a wider readership for their work and that that function. I think would continue to exist but again, you know, a lot of what the publishers would like is, you have to subscribe to my silo. Right. These are my books, and you license not just the book that you want, but you license all of the books in my, in my stack. And then when you get kind of used to that. I'll take out the ones that are the most popular. So you're still paying for the silo, but I'm taking out the ones that are popular and you have to license those differently. And why they tried to do that this, this year by by taking out some of the books that were licensed to universities. And we're right before the start of the semester, you know, I was assigning this particular book but now my students have to buy it separately rather than having it within the license silo. And I'm proud of authors Alliance for having worked with others to try to say, hey, that's really unfair and to do it right before the start of the semester, when people have already planned their curriculum so wiley basically backed off. But that's an example of even when you license something, you know, they can basically change the terms and change what the product is just like that, and you have no recourse. And I realize I'm not going to make any friends by saying critical things about libraries in this crowd and I far be it for me I've spent most of my adult life in libraries and relied on them heavily I have nothing bad to say about libraries, I do think we have to think about what the future of libraries is. And, and there's some hard truths there that they are going to be very different than what they are staying in here. Here, Pam. Thank you so much. This has been a such a great conversation I wanted to break in. We have a lot of questions from folks in the chat I don't think we'll be able to get to all of them. But we have a few themes kind of running in here and I thought it would be good to touch on a few of these. So one of the questions that's come in. Several questions that have come in are around the treatment of artificial intelligence, and both the production of new works via artificial intelligence but also how the European and American approaches to treating copyrighted works effectively as the inputs as the data for you know training AI or performing text and data analysis, how that has differed. And where you see the future going with those two approaches are they diverging are they coming closer together. And I think one of the sub questions there is how does that relate to at least on the American side of things. The constitutional imperative that we're supposed to have a system that promotes the progress of science. Yikes. Okay, I'm going to take this to you Pamela because this is above my pay grade. Well, I actually wrote a paper in 1985 about allocating copyright in computer generated works. And so, this is kind of an old problem too. And there was actually quite a quite a lot written about it but at the time in the 1980s when there were all these people thinking about it. It was a toy problem. And what I mean by toy problem is that there was nothing commercially significant that was happening right, it was all like, Oh, this can happen in the future. What I'm going to do. And so, I wrote, I wrote this paper and fortunately it's gotten rediscovered by the dozens of people who've been writing about this subject lately. Now, the office of the kind of the Patent and Trademark Office and the Copyright Office in the United States have both come out saying, artificial intelligence works are not protected by copyright at all. And, and so, you know, it takes a human author, actually to, to be eligible. Now, one of the things that's going to be hard for the Copyright Office is that by just looking at, let's say a picture, you can't tell whether it was created by artificial intelligence or by human, you just can't tell. And so, you know, that's going to be a, you know, a difficulty for the for the Copyright Office. Also, you know, the closest cases that are out there, kind of, you know, there were actually several cases in which, you know, Jesus or some spirit was said to be the the author, and the Copyright Office said no, no, you can't, you know, you can't, you can't register the work as authored by Jesus, it done work for us. So, but the the course of actually found that, you know, by editing or by translating the sort of a human person was eligible and so based on those cases, I think that the tweaking that somebody might do with an artificial intelligence work of some kind, editing it, or, you know, rearranging it in some way, that will probably be enough human authorship to to allow copyright to exist and I know from some studies that have been done in the EU that that's kind of the approach that they're taking. Also, but I think the more challenging question really is what about ingesting copies of works. You know, if you kind of create a database of the works of Picasso, and then you generate some new work that looks like a Picasso, but wasn't created by by that, that entity. What do you do about that now that's a place where there's a very very stark divergence of opinion. But based on cases like the Google Books decision. There's a pretty good argument that that in that making copies of existing copyrighted works and using them as data and not exploiting their expression is actually fair use. And so, so far the case law in the United States really is favorable to that now there are certainly people who are who are fighting about whether that should be fair use or not. And I know that there's one. There's one software program that has been developed that ingest the the work of certain artists and then for some of the works that they that the artists created that were unfinished. The program basically based on what the creator did in the past. Here's what the final version of the work might look like, and some of the, some of the authors or the, the, the states of authors are claiming that that's copyright infringement to make the sort of the completed work. And I think that's a, you know, there are lots of open questions out there so thanks to the audience for raising another yet another place where the copyright wars breakout. So, Peter, you had talked a bit about kind of this emerging issue on emerging it's been around for a long time but how do we deal with this idea of open access. And there being, you know, a really strong contingent of authors who are interested in this and Pam you mentioned that the Google Books case I remember one. Remember these little quotes that stick out and in one of the briefs from the author's guild. They asserted that open access was in chemical to their interests, and they even italicized the chemical part to emphasize like how opposed they were to this idea that that their works would be distributed for free. And clearly there's there's distinctions within authors and Peter you started talking about that, the different types of authors but could you maybe talk a little bit more about how that's working out in Europe right now, and some of the, the missing pieces or why aren't we seeing some of that in the United States. Well, I don't know that we're there we're not there, the Europeans are have taken a few initiatives that we haven't followed up on, most of which has to do with the fact that they have more centralized governmental systems that allow them more leverage so for example, in England, the RAF or whatever they call it the research assessment exercise they keep on giving a new name every few years. So I can never keep up with it but because all the research funding comes through a central instance, they can actually force academics to make their works of an access or they shut off the spigot and you know it's been only articles up until now I think the next one, or at least they're certainly threatening to make the next one, also include books, and so, you know, British academics are really faced with the dilemma that there's no choice if they want to be have their work recognized for promotion and tenure and advancement and all, you know, those sorts of issues, it's got to be open access and so they, you know, they have them, you know, they have them in a bind as it were, and we, and the US simply can't do that in the same way with the any agent and a certain surface can they can make their stuff and you know that sort of thing. So, really, it's going to be harder for us to turn this to turn the tanker as the in Europe. Thank you. So one. One last question I think we have time for one more and this is going back a little in history. But a question came in about how and why did the US come to flipped from a essentially opt in to a opt out system, you know, following the 1976 Copyright Act, it seems like a very European approach. And at least from the perspective of libraries and archives and cultural heritage institutions been really devastating in terms of trying to sort out, you know what materials in the public domain and whether they're able to share that. Well, I think a good part of the explanation is that as us copyright industries got bigger and bigger and more global. The, the copyright industry groups were talking about why should we have much less protection in the United States than we have in Europe. Right. So our markets are so if if the copyright at the time was under the burn convention was life of the author plus 50 years. In the US, it was like 28 years renewable for another 28 years. And, you know, there's, there's a reason why, you know, if, if, if they're giving longer protection why shouldn't we, why shouldn't the US also do so I think that was one of the, that's one of the major explanations but the US didn't really move out of the kind of opt in, as opposed to opt out regime until 1989 because until the passage of the, the implementation legislation for the burn convention, which the US joined in 1989. If you didn't put a copyright notice on published copies of a work, then everyone could assume that it was in the public domain and available for free copy. Now, I think that, you know, the United States had to do that if they wanted to join the burn convention. And there was a reason why they wanted to be part of the burn convention because that's that was where the international conversation about copyright was happening. And the US didn't have a seat at the table, because it wasn't a member of the burn union, but the burn convention required life of the author plus 50 years and required no formalities as a condition of copyright protection. And so the United States basically changed to the more European role in order to comply with the burn convention, and then we had a seat at the table. We are very close to time, Peter I don't know if you have any last parting words that you'd like to add. Only that I suspect the battle will continue. Whatever rapprochement there has been, as Pamela has pointed out, it's not as though there's a unanimity. And in this particular case it seems to me we're on the right side of history, and I hope we prevail. I hope so too. That's a great way to end. I will hand it back over to Chris. Are you ready, Chris? Go ahead. I am. Thanks. Thanks, Dave and thanks everyone for this conversation. So I can sense that our audience still has some questions, and given that there are 216 of you still past the top of the hour so here's what I'd like to do I didn't buy any of you who are able to stick around once we stop the recording for a little bit more of a chat session with Pamela and with Peter and with Dave. So one thing I would like to say is that please be sure to download the book or purchase it in print. The CopyWart Wars is a fascinating read. It is really dense. It was hard to make it through, I'll be honest, as a layperson or just a librarian. But here's the great thing. If you own the book, if you have the physical book, you can pass it on to someone that you think should read it afterwards. I mean, that's one of the things I like most about owning books is that you can give them to others. So as we wind down here today, I do want to tell you about a couple of other upcoming events that you're going to want to check out. So I know we're, as we're drawing down to the end of the end of the year, you might not be thinking about next year, but I do want to put some save the dates in front of you. So we might be asking the question, well, why is the internet so broken and what could ever possibly fix it? We'll be diving into that question on January 12 when we host an in-person event at our main library in San Francisco with Ben Tarnoff, the author of the new book Internet for the People. Ben will be in conversation with Leila Bailey, the Internet Archives Policy Council, and you certainly won't want to miss that. I'm going to paste a bunch of links here for these events into the chat. So and then after the book on the 12th, later in January, we have two ways of celebrating the public domain. We love the public domain. On January 19, we'll be celebrating the works, the published works from 1927 that are moving into the public domain this year, or in 2023, with a virtual party. And then on the next day, on January 20, come to our in-person again at 300 Funston in San Francisco, come to our film remix contest screening at the Internet Archive. And so as part of our celebration, we're sponsoring a film remix contest to create short films using resources from the Internet Archives collections from 1927 again that are entering the public domain. So you can learn more about those through the links that we've shared out in chat. So to close down here today and before we kick off the after party, I'd like to give some some commitments and some thank yous. So, as we've mentioned several times throughout the throughout the conversation, the recording from today's session will be archived on archive.org later tonight and along with the links that we've shared the excellent chat commentary, and everyone who has registered will receive an email with a link to that recording and those resources. As for thank yous, a big thank you to our speakers to Peter, Pamela, for joining us today. Just a fascinating conversation. Thanks also to Dave Hansen and Authors Alliance for co hosting our session, and to you our audience for your time and your enthusiasm today. I'd like to just take a final note. This is our last virtual event for 2022. And through the 28 online events that we've produced this year we've brought more than 6000 people together virtually to hear about issues in the library and information policy world. Now, we could not do this and put on these talks without the hard work of the team working behind the scenes, who you haven't seen today or through those 28 other sessions at every one of these conversations and so a very big thank you to Caitlin and Duncan, who make all of this just run so smoothly. Now, again, as we're as we close down here I do hope that you can join us at next year at one of our book talks or at public domain day, or another one of our events. Thank you all. 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Yeah, I'm the same way.", "tokens": [50623, 6930, 11, 9702, 1706, 13, 9425, 11, 314, 1101, 262, 976, 835, 13, 50707], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.12462572293860891, "compression_ratio": 1.657258064516129, "no_speech_prob": 0.02739597298204899, "words": [{"word": " Thanks,", "start": 249.58, "end": 249.64, "probability": 0.4521230459213257}, {"word": " Brewster.", "start": 249.78, "end": 249.9, "probability": 0.6048666685819626}, {"word": " Yeah,", "start": 250.1, "end": 250.14, "probability": 0.9007417559623718}, {"word": " I'm", "start": 250.2, "end": 250.34, "probability": 0.9967797100543976}, {"word": " the", "start": 250.34, "end": 250.42, "probability": 0.994766354560852}, {"word": " same", "start": 250.42, "end": 250.58, "probability": 0.9993771910667419}, {"word": " way.", "start": 250.58, "end": 250.84, "probability": 0.9974115490913391}]}, {"id": 59, "seek": 24422, "start": 251.18, "end": 252.4, "text": " You know, I love digital books.", "tokens": [50707, 921, 760, 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So and thank you all for joining.", "tokens": [51083, 6930, 11, 5180, 13, 1406, 290, 5875, 345, 477, 329, 9679, 13, 51259], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.10470840034134891, "compression_ratio": 1.6101083032490975, "no_speech_prob": 0.011897934600710869, "words": [{"word": " Thanks,", "start": 284.54, "end": 284.9, "probability": 0.46654361486434937}, {"word": " Chris.", "start": 285.06, "end": 285.12, "probability": 0.964988112449646}, {"word": " So", "start": 286.64, "end": 286.66, "probability": 0.6373658776283264}, {"word": " and", "start": 286.66, "end": 287.16, "probability": 0.49473756551742554}, {"word": " thank", "start": 287.16, "end": 287.32, "probability": 0.9969276785850525}, {"word": " you", "start": 287.32, "end": 287.46, "probability": 0.999552309513092}, {"word": " all", "start": 287.46, "end": 287.64, "probability": 0.9968736171722412}, {"word": " for", "start": 287.64, "end": 287.82, "probability": 0.9994364380836487}, {"word": " joining.", "start": 287.82, 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It can either be focused on the creators and their rewards on the one hand, or it can be focused on the public domain and what the audience expects in the way of having content delivered.", "tokens": [51075, 2735, 11, 326, 1724, 326, 6634, 318, 6840, 734, 7452, 290, 340, 460, 467, 287, 12330, 11678, 13, 632, 460, 2035, 307, 5670, 319, 262, 16294, 290, 511, 11530, 319, 262, 530, 1021, 11, 393, 340, 460, 307, 5670, 319, 262, 1171, 7386, 290, 644, 262, 5386, 13423, 287, 262, 835, 286, 1719, 2695, 6793, 13, 51849], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.14002025828642004, "compression_ratio": 1.8, "no_speech_prob": 0.027529694139957428, "words": [{"word": " Now,", "start": 626.62, "end": 626.88, "probability": 0.9844830632209778}, {"word": " that", "start": 626.92, "end": 627.04, "probability": 0.9987751841545105}, {"word": " means", "start": 627.04, "end": 627.28, "probability": 0.9995759129524231}, {"word": " that", "start": 627.28, "end": 627.52, "probability": 0.9450567364692688}, 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At first they were just 14 years and only a few kinds of works were protected, mainly writings.", "tokens": [50997, 17637, 547, 1790, 13, 1629, 717, 484, 547, 655, 1478, 812, 290, 691, 257, 1178, 6982, 286, 2499, 547, 6861, 11, 8384, 19336, 13, 51349], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.19525582823034834, "compression_ratio": 1.4930232558139536, "no_speech_prob": 0.04606711491942406, "words": [{"word": " Terms", "start": 655.1, "end": 655.18, "probability": 0.6825177669525146}, {"word": " were", "start": 655.18, "end": 655.44, "probability": 0.9978534579277039}, {"word": " short.", "start": 655.44, "end": 655.76, "probability": 0.9993404746055603}, {"word": " At", "start": 656.02, "end": 656.18, "probability": 0.9883538484573364}, {"word": " first", "start": 656.18, "end": 656.36, "probability": 0.9994101524353027}, {"word": " they", "start": 656.36, "end": 656.52, "probability": 0.5041307806968689}, {"word": " were", "start": 656.52, "end": 656.6, "probability": 0.9975885152816772}, {"word": " just", "start": 656.6, "end": 656.8, "probability": 0.9973443150520325}, {"word": " 14", "start": 656.8, "end": 657.16, "probability": 0.984982430934906}, {"word": " years", "start": 657.16, "end": 657.52, "probability": 0.9982479810714722}, {"word": " and", "start": 657.52, "end": 658.2, "probability": 0.385664165019989}, {"word": " only", "start": 658.2, "end": 658.44, "probability": 0.9981200098991394}, {"word": " a", "start": 658.44, "end": 658.58, "probability": 0.9994261264801025}, {"word": " few", "start": 658.58, "end": 658.76, "probability": 0.999786913394928}, {"word": " kinds", "start": 658.76, "end": 659.08, "probability": 0.9981600642204285}, {"word": " of", "start": 659.08, "end": 659.32, "probability": 0.9996020197868347}, {"word": " works", "start": 659.32, "end": 659.72, "probability": 0.9934777021408081}, {"word": " were", "start": 659.72, "end": 659.9, "probability": 0.9954759478569031}, {"word": " protected,", "start": 659.9, "end": 660.38, "probability": 0.9995600581169128}, {"word": " mainly", "start": 660.98, "end": 661.18, "probability": 0.9964792132377625}, {"word": " writings.", "start": 661.18, "end": 661.7, "probability": 0.9884238839149475}]}, {"id": 112, "seek": 66170, "start": 662.7, "end": 673.22, "text": " But having won this beachhead, creators and their disseminators strove for more. If novels and essays and plays were protected, you know, why not engravings of music?", "tokens": [50413, 887, 1719, 1839, 428, 10481, 2256, 11, 16294, 290, 511, 30548, 2024, 9660, 303, 329, 517, 13, 1002, 16122, 290, 27126, 290, 5341, 547, 6861, 11, 345, 760, 11, 1521, 407, 1786, 42335, 286, 2647, 30, 50941], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.11246153365734012, "compression_ratio": 1.752212389380531, "no_speech_prob": 0.421933650970459, "words": [{"word": " But", "start": 662.6, "end": 662.9, "probability": 0.3132365942001343}, {"word": " having", "start": 662.9, "end": 663.24, "probability": 0.9667455554008484}, {"word": " won", "start": 663.24, "end": 663.48, "probability": 0.9414649605751038}, {"word": " this", "start": 663.48, "end": 663.72, "probability": 0.9699758291244507}, {"word": " beachhead,", "start": 663.72, "end": 664.32, "probability": 0.8300853073596954}, {"word": " creators", "start": 664.76, "end": 665.06, "probability": 0.9838310480117798}, {"word": " and", "start": 665.06, "end": 665.74, "probability": 0.7842159867286682}, {"word": " their", "start": 665.74, "end": 665.9, "probability": 0.9921010136604309}, {"word": " disseminators", "start": 665.9, "end": 666.74, "probability": 0.988895982503891}, {"word": " strove", "start": 666.74, "end": 667.7, "probability": 0.9678884744644165}, {"word": " for", "start": 667.7, "end": 667.86, "probability": 0.9971444010734558}, {"word": " more.", "start": 667.86, "end": 668.08, "probability": 0.9981613755226135}, {"word": " If", "start": 668.9, "end": 669.16, "probability": 0.9854534268379211}, {"word": " novels", "start": 669.16, "end": 669.42, "probability": 0.9959338307380676}, {"word": " and", "start": 669.42, "end": 669.68, "probability": 0.9217106103897095}, {"word": " essays", "start": 669.68, "end": 669.98, "probability": 0.9985406398773193}, {"word": " and", "start": 669.98, "end": 670.2, "probability": 0.9921007752418518}, {"word": " plays", "start": 670.2, "end": 670.46, "probability": 0.9977771639823914}, {"word": " were", "start": 670.46, "end": 670.68, "probability": 0.9965013265609741}, {"word": " protected,", "start": 670.68, "end": 671.1, "probability": 0.9992260932922363}, {"word": " you", "start": 671.8, "end": 671.84, "probability": 0.7827907800674438}, {"word": " know,", "start": 671.84, "end": 671.98, "probability": 0.9985435009002686}, {"word": " why", "start": 672.08, "end": 672.18, "probability": 0.9914860129356384}, {"word": " not", "start": 672.18, "end": 672.34, "probability": 0.9990550875663757}, {"word": " engravings", "start": 672.34, "end": 672.7, "probability": 0.9916112124919891}, {"word": " of", "start": 672.7, "end": 672.92, "probability": 0.557356059551239}, {"word": " music?", "start": 672.92, "end": 673.22, "probability": 0.9991527795791626}]}, {"id": 113, "seek": 66170, "start": 673.9, "end": 687.52, "text": " And if these works were protected for 14 years, why not longer? 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The author's rights tradition regards creators as having a natural law property right in works,", "tokens": [51001, 843, 428, 318, 644, 314, 287, 262, 1492, 869, 262, 1772, 338, 2489, 6761, 13, 383, 1772, 338, 2489, 6761, 13957, 16294, 355, 1719, 257, 3288, 1099, 3119, 826, 287, 2499, 11, 51491], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1407186926864996, "compression_ratio": 1.704035874439462, "no_speech_prob": 0.2425040304660797, "words": [{"word": " And", "start": 747.46, "end": 747.54, "probability": 0.9491545557975769}, {"word": " this", "start": 747.54, "end": 747.62, "probability": 0.997312605381012}, {"word": " is", "start": 747.62, "end": 747.74, "probability": 0.9987766146659851}, {"word": " what", "start": 747.74, "end": 747.88, "probability": 0.99729984998703}, {"word": " I", "start": 747.88, "end": 748.16, "probability": 0.9888948202133179}, {"word": " in", "start": 748.16, "end": 748.48, "probability": 0.5313265323638916}, {"word": " the", "start": 748.48, "end": 748.56, 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Authors were given almost total control over their works, they could prevent them from appearing, except precisely as they wanted, and they could prevent works", "tokens": [50785, 39020, 2489, 547, 32094, 1512, 286, 262, 3427, 3164, 13, 46665, 547, 1813, 2048, 2472, 1630, 625, 511, 2499, 11, 484, 714, 2948, 606, 422, 12655, 11, 2845, 10582, 355, 484, 2227, 11, 290, 484, 714, 2948, 2499, 51429], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.11942708814466321, "compression_ratio": 1.6320754716981132, "no_speech_prob": 0.12460126727819443, "words": [{"word": " Moral", "start": 916.6, "end": 916.6, "probability": 0.9743165373802185}, {"word": " rights", "start": 916.6, "end": 916.96, "probability": 0.9979111552238464}, {"word": " were", "start": 916.96, "end": 917.2, "probability": 0.9763363599777222}, {"word": " emblematic", "start": 917.2, "end": 917.8, "probability": 0.9975167512893677}, {"word": " of", "start": 917.8, "end": 918.22, "probability": 0.9984176158905029}, {"word": " the", "start": 918.22, "end": 918.32, "probability": 0.9986673593521118}, {"word": " European", "start": 918.32, "end": 918.66, "probability": 0.9984788298606873}, {"word": " approach.", "start": 918.66, "end": 919.14, "probability": 0.9977080821990967}, {"word": " Authors", "start": 919.96, "end": 919.96, "probability": 0.9846296906471252}, {"word": " were", "start": 919.96, "end": 920.16, "probability": 0.9989809393882751}, {"word": " given", "start": 920.16, "end": 920.4, "probability": 0.9989755153656006}, {"word": " almost", "start": 920.4, "end": 920.84, "probability": 0.9967269897460938}, {"word": " total", "start": 920.84, "end": 921.18, "probability": 0.9988632202148438}, {"word": " control", "start": 921.18, "end": 921.6, "probability": 0.9992068409919739}, {"word": " over", "start": 921.6, "end": 921.88, "probability": 0.9740318655967712}, {"word": " their", "start": 921.88, "end": 922.08, "probability": 0.9959004521369934}, {"word": " works,", "start": 922.08, "end": 922.38, "probability": 0.9928752183914185}, {"word": " they", "start": 922.8, "end": 923.02, "probability": 0.992683470249176}, {"word": " could", "start": 923.02, "end": 923.16, "probability": 0.9988003969192505}, {"word": " prevent", "start": 923.16, "end": 923.48, "probability": 0.9990183115005493}, {"word": " them", "start": 923.48, "end": 923.72, "probability": 0.9991790652275085}, {"word": " from", "start": 923.72, "end": 923.9, "probability": 0.9983035326004028}, {"word": " appearing,", "start": 923.9, "end": 924.32, "probability": 0.9995123147964478}, {"word": " except", "start": 924.68, "end": 925.0, "probability": 0.9502489566802979}, {"word": " precisely", "start": 925.0, "end": 925.5, "probability": 0.9779742956161499}, {"word": " as", "start": 925.5, "end": 925.92, "probability": 0.9411839842796326}, {"word": " they", "start": 925.92, "end": 926.1, "probability": 0.9995704293251038}, {"word": " wanted,", "start": 926.1, "end": 926.38, "probability": 0.9987037181854248}, {"word": " and", "start": 926.88, "end": 927.14, "probability": 0.9965774416923523}, {"word": " they", "start": 927.14, "end": 927.28, "probability": 0.9991596937179565}, {"word": " could", "start": 927.28, "end": 927.52, "probability": 0.9994508624076843}, {"word": " prevent", "start": 927.52, "end": 928.22, "probability": 0.9970857501029968}, {"word": " works", "start": 928.22, "end": 929.0, "probability": 0.9803575873374939}]}, {"id": 140, "seek": 92900, "start": 929.78, "end": 934.36, "text": " and any uses of their works. In the most extreme case,", "tokens": [50409, 290, 597, 3544, 286, 511, 2499, 13, 554, 262, 749, 3257, 1339, 11, 50633], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.13962773578922924, "compression_ratio": 1.5608695652173914, "no_speech_prob": 0.08160270750522614, "words": [{"word": " and", "start": 929.78, "end": 930.26, "probability": 0.4638163149356842}, {"word": " any", "start": 930.26, "end": 930.74, "probability": 0.8938021063804626}, {"word": " uses", "start": 930.74, "end": 931.16, "probability": 0.9890934228897095}, {"word": " of", "start": 931.16, "end": 932.14, "probability": 0.9951050281524658}, {"word": " their", "start": 932.14, "end": 932.62, "probability": 0.9723934531211853}, {"word": " works.", "start": 932.62, "end": 932.9, "probability": 0.9861774444580078}, {"word": " In", "start": 933.14, "end": 933.28, "probability": 0.9830492734909058}, {"word": " the", "start": 933.28, "end": 933.36, "probability": 0.996777355670929}, {"word": " most", "start": 933.36, "end": 933.54, "probability": 0.9985803365707397}, {"word": " extreme", "start": 933.54, "end": 933.94, "probability": 0.9995887875556946}, {"word": " case,", "start": 933.94, "end": 934.36, "probability": 0.9952719807624817}]}, {"id": 141, "seek": 92900, "start": 934.84, "end": 950.54, "text": " authors were given a withdrawal right, that is to say they could withdraw works from the market and forbid their use even after they had been published. In practice, this didn't work out very realistically, but in theory it was a right that they were granted. 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114594, "start": 1145.94, "end": 1152.38, "text": " So let me stop there for fear of monopolizing what time we have.", "tokens": [50413, 1406, 1309, 502, 2245, 612, 329, 3252, 286, 30797, 2890, 644, 640, 356, 423, 13, 50663], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1424676663166768, "compression_ratio": 1.238532110091743, "no_speech_prob": 0.12033209949731827, "words": [{"word": " So", "start": 1145.94, "end": 1146.5, "probability": 0.09540098160505295}, {"word": " let", "start": 1146.5, "end": 1148.14, "probability": 0.8253551721572876}, {"word": " me", "start": 1148.14, "end": 1148.24, "probability": 0.9968219995498657}, {"word": " stop", "start": 1148.24, "end": 1148.46, "probability": 0.8859994411468506}, {"word": " there", "start": 1148.46, "end": 1148.94, "probability": 0.9954774975776672}, {"word": " for", "start": 1148.94, "end": 1150.04, "probability": 0.8120728731155396}, {"word": " fear", "start": 1150.04, "end": 1150.26, "probability": 0.8951102495193481}, {"word": " of", 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There were so many details about those.", "tokens": [50413, 314, 892, 11, 981, 314, 423, 587, 5385, 351, 257, 922, 636, 286, 262, 2106, 286, 262, 6634, 9976, 287, 257, 13, 1318, 547, 523, 867, 3307, 546, 883, 13, 50963], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.12622498830159506, "compression_ratio": 1.515, "no_speech_prob": 0.18510279059410095, "words": [{"word": " I", "start": 1161.98, "end": 1162.74, "probability": 0.6541270613670349}, {"word": " think,", "start": 1162.74, "end": 1163.26, "probability": 0.9787589311599731}, {"word": " while", "start": 1163.68, "end": 1164.22, "probability": 0.9848853349685669}, {"word": " I", "start": 1164.22, "end": 1164.5, "probability": 0.9950135350227356}, {"word": " have", "start": 1164.5, "end": 1164.8, "probability": 0.9971121549606323}, {"word": " been", "start": 1164.8, "end": 1165.4, "probability": 0.9990652203559875}, {"word": " familiar", "start": 1165.4, "end": 1165.84, "probability": 0.9990091323852539}, {"word": " with", "start": 1165.84, "end": 1166.22, "probability": 0.9980582594871521}, {"word": " a", "start": 1166.22, "end": 1166.8, "probability": 0.9759595990180969}, {"word": " good", "start": 1166.8, "end": 1167.0, "probability": 0.996030867099762}, {"word": " part", "start": 1167.0, "end": 1167.24, "probability": 0.9993079900741577}, {"word": " of", "start": 1167.24, "end": 1167.38, "probability": 0.9992507100105286}, {"word": " the", "start": 1167.38, "end": 1167.5, "probability": 0.9993389248847961}, {"word": " history", "start": 1167.5, "end": 1167.86, "probability": 0.9973914623260498}, {"word": " of", "start": 1167.86, "end": 1168.12, "probability": 0.9952291250228882}, {"word": " the", "start": 1168.12, "end": 1168.28, "probability": 0.9860256314277649}, {"word": " copyright", "start": 1168.28, "end": 1168.52, "probability": 0.8416730761528015}, {"word": " wars", "start": 1168.52, "end": 1169.06, "probability": 0.9897933006286621}, {"word": " in", "start": 1169.06, "end": 1170.08, "probability": 0.06815630942583084}, {"word": " a.", "start": 1170.08, "end": 1170.44, "probability": 0.7757184505462646}, {"word": " There", "start": 1171.34, "end": 1171.36, "probability": 0.9711416363716125}, {"word": " were", "start": 1171.36, "end": 1171.52, "probability": 0.995013415813446}, {"word": " so", "start": 1171.52, "end": 1171.92, "probability": 0.9928264617919922}, {"word": " many", "start": 1171.92, "end": 1172.1, "probability": 0.9997503161430359}, {"word": " details", "start": 1172.1, "end": 1172.68, "probability": 0.9986009001731873}, {"word": " about", "start": 1172.68, "end": 1173.42, "probability": 0.9923290610313416}, {"word": " those.", "start": 1173.42, "end": 1173.92, "probability": 0.9708705544471741}]}, {"id": 157, "seek": 116198, "start": 1175.3, "end": 1187.1, "text": " The ways in which copyright has been, from my standpoint misused that I didn't know about so you've given me a lot of examples to work with. 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then the platforms have a responsibility to investigate and take it down if the claim is is solid but it does seem to me that", "tokens": [50363, 843, 11, 345, 760, 11, 262, 9554, 836, 470, 423, 284, 1011, 1997, 866, 1566, 290, 4556, 262, 6634, 4870, 21079, 644, 2499, 423, 587, 14020, 276, 290, 788, 262, 9554, 423, 257, 5798, 284, 9161, 290, 1011, 340, 866, 611, 262, 1624, 318, 318, 4735, 475, 340, 857, 1283, 284, 502, 326, 51613], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.0905144591080515, "compression_ratio": 1.588235294117647, "no_speech_prob": 0.3296797573566437, "words": [{"word": " And,", "start": 1419.2, "end": 1420.32, "probability": 0.2730133533477783}, {"word": " you", "start": 1420.56, "end": 1422.06, "probability": 0.9416492581367493}, {"word": " know,", "start": 1422.06, "end": 1422.18, "probability": 0.999566376209259}, {"word": " the", "start": 1422.26, "end": 1422.44, "probability": 0.9968811273574829}, {"word": " platforms", "start": 1422.44, "end": 1422.82, "probability": 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the DMCA wasn't far back. I hate the anti circumvention rules but but even they have been modified considerably because Congress put in a provision that allows the Copyright Office essentially to grant new exemptions to the anti circumvention laws, and so", "tokens": [50363, 262, 49648, 2492, 470, 1290, 736, 13, 314, 5465, 262, 3098, 4456, 4018, 3173, 475, 475, 772, 484, 423, 587, 9518, 15394, 780, 3162, 1234, 287, 257, 8287, 326, 3578, 262, 15069, 4452, 6986, 284, 7264, 649, 30244, 284, 262, 3098, 4456, 4018, 3657, 11, 290, 523, 51613], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.12881221023260378, "compression_ratio": 1.4739884393063585, "no_speech_prob": 0.27483657002449036, "words": [{"word": " the", "start": 1444.1399999999999, "end": 1445.06, "probability": 0.2896465063095093}, {"word": " DMCA", "start": 1445.06, "end": 1445.5, "probability": 0.9890282154083252}, {"word": " wasn't", "start": 1445.5, "end": 1446.22, "probability": 0.946799099445343}, {"word": " far", "start": 1446.22, "end": 1446.5, 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those journals are basically proprietary, we feel trapped. So it's been especially difficult for those people to, to find their way to open access but even so I think that there are now efforts in some of those fields anyway to, to open up a little bit more.", "tokens": [50363, 290, 355, 890, 355, 883, 22790, 389, 6209, 20622, 11, 356, 1254, 13640, 13, 1406, 340, 338, 587, 2592, 2408, 329, 883, 661, 284, 11, 284, 1064, 511, 835, 284, 1280, 1895, 475, 772, 523, 314, 892, 326, 612, 389, 783, 4040, 287, 617, 286, 883, 7032, 6949, 284, 11, 284, 1280, 510, 257, 1310, 1643, 517, 13, 51613], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1319388574169528, "compression_ratio": 1.5082872928176796, "no_speech_prob": 0.48783227801322937, "words": [{"word": " and", "start": 2195.38, "end": 2195.64, "probability": 0.6451728343963623}, {"word": " as", "start": 2195.64, "end": 2195.76, "probability": 0.9826846718788147}, {"word": " long", "start": 2195.76, "end": 2195.94, "probability": 0.9991303086280823}, {"word": " as", "start": 2195.94, "end": 2196.12, 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And so it seems to me that one of the things that the libraries have been able to do not be able to like purchase these ebooks and lend them the way that the that", "tokens": [50413, 16168, 284, 787, 511, 3835, 1695, 34491, 691, 832, 15665, 290, 691, 287, 4047, 10770, 17519, 13, 843, 523, 340, 2331, 284, 502, 326, 530, 286, 262, 1243, 326, 262, 12782, 423, 587, 1498, 284, 466, 407, 307, 1498, 284, 588, 5001, 777, 304, 12106, 290, 22096, 606, 262, 835, 326, 262, 326, 51663], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.13084562201248973, "compression_ratio": 1.5917159763313609, "no_speech_prob": 0.5978805422782898, "words": [{"word": " Want", "start": 2305.58, "end": 2306.34, "probability": 0.0026106610894203186}, {"word": " to", "start": 2306.34, "end": 2307.1, "probability": 0.9876027703285217}, {"word": " make", "start": 2307.1, "end": 2307.76, "probability": 0.9961081147193909}, {"word": " their", "start": 2307.76, "end": 2308.52, "probability": 0.9959220886230469}, {"word": " books", 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These are my books, and you license not just the book that you want, but you license all of the books in my, in my stack. And then when you get kind of", "tokens": [50963, 6498, 13, 2312, 389, 616, 3835, 11, 290, 345, 5964, 407, 655, 262, 1492, 326, 345, 765, 11, 475, 345, 5964, 477, 286, 262, 3835, 287, 616, 11, 287, 616, 8931, 13, 843, 788, 618, 345, 651, 1611, 286, 51663], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.08625854316510652, "compression_ratio": 1.553763440860215, "no_speech_prob": 0.30682966113090515, "words": [{"word": " Right.", "start": 2823.78, "end": 2824.14, "probability": 0.7071309089660645}, {"word": " These", "start": 2824.48, "end": 2824.7, "probability": 0.9930158853530884}, {"word": " are", "start": 2824.7, "end": 2824.86, "probability": 0.9994207620620728}, {"word": " my", "start": 2824.86, "end": 2825.14, "probability": 0.9983935952186584}, {"word": " books,", "start": 2825.14, "end": 2825.58, "probability": 0.9992276430130005}, {"word": " and", "start": 2825.98, "end": 2826.46, "probability": 0.9972894191741943}, {"word": " you", "start": 2826.46, "end": 2826.86, "probability": 0.9935590624809265}, {"word": " license", "start": 2826.86, "end": 2827.32, "probability": 0.9683824181556702}, {"word": " not", "start": 2827.32, "end": 2827.72, "probability": 0.829666018486023}, {"word": " just", "start": 2827.72, "end": 2828.18, "probability": 0.9989639520645142}, {"word": " the", "start": 2828.18, "end": 2828.64, "probability": 0.9928378462791443}, {"word": " book", "start": 2828.64, "end": 2828.8, "probability": 0.999383807182312}, {"word": " that", "start": 2828.8, "end": 2828.98, "probability": 0.9977384805679321}, {"word": " you", "start": 2828.98, "end": 2829.16, "probability": 0.9995054006576538}, {"word": " want,", "start": 2829.16, "end": 2829.48, "probability": 0.9858318567276001}, {"word": " but", "start": 2829.72, "end": 2830.08, "probability": 0.9976231455802917}, {"word": " you", "start": 2830.08, "end": 2830.32, "probability": 0.9952114224433899}, {"word": " license", "start": 2830.32, "end": 2830.84, "probability": 0.9718686938285828}, {"word": " all", "start": 2830.84, "end": 2831.5, "probability": 0.966985821723938}, {"word": " of", "start": 2831.5, "end": 2831.68, "probability": 0.9974156618118286}, {"word": " the", "start": 2831.68, "end": 2831.8, "probability": 0.9994693398475647}, {"word": " books", "start": 2831.8, "end": 2832.02, "probability": 0.9991012811660767}, {"word": " in", "start": 2832.02, "end": 2832.2, "probability": 0.9867788553237915}, {"word": " my,", "start": 2832.2, "end": 2832.46, "probability": 0.997855007648468}, {"word": " in", "start": 2832.48, "end": 2832.88, "probability": 0.9766446352005005}, {"word": " my", "start": 2832.88, "end": 2833.06, "probability": 0.9992552399635315}, {"word": " stack.", "start": 2833.06, "end": 2833.48, "probability": 0.9949225783348083}, {"word": " And", "start": 2834.0, "end": 2834.02, "probability": 0.9921973347663879}, {"word": " then", "start": 2834.02, "end": 2834.18, "probability": 0.9980249404907227}, {"word": " when", "start": 2834.18, "end": 2834.48, "probability": 0.9742439985275269}, {"word": " you", "start": 2834.48, "end": 2835.08, "probability": 0.9976441264152527}, {"word": " get", "start": 2835.08, "end": 2835.28, "probability": 0.9991739392280579}, {"word": " kind", "start": 2835.28, "end": 2835.52, "probability": 0.9964009523391724}, {"word": " of", "start": 2835.52, "end": 2835.86, "probability": 0.9991399049758911}]}, {"id": 267, "seek": 283586, "start": 2837.56, "end": 2839.14, "text": " used to that.", "tokens": [50413, 973, 284, 326, 13, 50563], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.07883997917175294, "compression_ratio": 1.4803149606299213, "no_speech_prob": 0.13915786147117615, "words": [{"word": " used", "start": 2837.56, "end": 2838.08, "probability": 0.12335056066513062}, {"word": " to", "start": 2838.08, "end": 2838.42, "probability": 0.9931395649909973}, {"word": " that.", "start": 2838.42, "end": 2839.14, "probability": 0.9848476052284241}]}, {"id": 268, "seek": 283586, "start": 2840.1, "end": 2851.52, "text": " I'll take out the ones that are the most popular. So you're still paying for the silo, but I'm taking out the ones that are popular and you have to license those differently.", "tokens": [50563, 314, 1183, 1011, 503, 262, 3392, 326, 389, 262, 749, 2968, 13, 1406, 345, 821, 991, 5989, 329, 262, 3313, 78, 11, 475, 314, 1101, 2263, 503, 262, 3392, 326, 389, 2968, 290, 345, 423, 284, 5964, 883, 10338, 13, 51163], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.07883997917175294, "compression_ratio": 1.4803149606299213, "no_speech_prob": 0.13915786147117615, "words": [{"word": " I'll", "start": 2840.1, "end": 2840.44, "probability": 0.9605420827865601}, {"word": " take", "start": 2840.44, "end": 2840.64, "probability": 0.9988366961479187}, {"word": " out", "start": 2840.64, "end": 2840.86, "probability": 0.9977096319198608}, {"word": " the", "start": 2840.86, "end": 2841.0, "probability": 0.9984607696533203}, {"word": " ones", "start": 2841.0, "end": 2841.24, "probability": 0.996648371219635}, {"word": " that", "start": 2841.24, "end": 2841.44, 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Whatever rapprochement there has been, as Pamela has pointed out, it's not as though there's a unanimity. And in this particular case it seems to me we're on the right side of history, and I hope we prevail.", "tokens": [50413, 5514, 326, 314, 4099, 262, 3344, 481, 2555, 13, 15935, 374, 21064, 2395, 434, 612, 468, 587, 11, 355, 43341, 468, 6235, 503, 11, 340, 338, 407, 355, 996, 612, 338, 257, 17452, 414, 13, 843, 287, 428, 1948, 1339, 340, 2331, 284, 502, 356, 821, 319, 262, 826, 1735, 286, 2106, 11, 290, 314, 2911, 356, 28615, 13, 51313], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1537342071533203, "compression_ratio": 1.5238095238095237, "no_speech_prob": 0.08326585590839386, "words": [{"word": " Only", "start": 3655.24, "end": 3655.68, "probability": 0.10825913399457932}, {"word": " that", "start": 3655.68, "end": 3656.12, "probability": 0.9781278967857361}, {"word": " I", "start": 3656.12, "end": 3656.24, "probability": 0.9744953513145447}, {"word": " suspect", "start": 3656.24, "end": 3656.58, "probability": 0.9976028800010681}, {"word": " the", "start": 3656.58, "end": 3656.86, "probability": 0.8908076882362366}, {"word": " battle", "start": 3656.86, "end": 3656.98, "probability": 0.9910647869110107}, {"word": " will", "start": 3656.98, "end": 3657.22, "probability": 0.9958612322807312}, {"word": " continue.", "start": 3657.22, "end": 3657.62, "probability": 0.9982542395591736}, {"word": " Whatever", "start": 3658.54, "end": 3658.84, "probability": 0.9435995817184448}, {"word": " rapprochement", "start": 3658.84, "end": 3659.4, "probability": 0.8005408942699432}, {"word": " there", "start": 3659.4, "end": 3659.6, "probability": 0.8772746324539185}, {"word": " has", "start": 3659.6, "end": 3659.78, "probability": 0.9865421056747437}, {"word": " been,", "start": 3659.78, "end": 3660.02, "probability": 0.9981812238693237}, {"word": " as", "start": 3660.48, "end": 3660.52, "probability": 0.9841832518577576}, {"word": " Pamela", "start": 3660.52, "end": 3660.92, "probability": 0.9975167512893677}, {"word": " has", "start": 3660.92, "end": 3661.12, "probability": 0.989055871963501}, {"word": " pointed", "start": 3661.12, "end": 3661.3, "probability": 0.9991378784179688}, {"word": " out,", "start": 3661.3, "end": 3661.68, "probability": 0.9961733222007751}, {"word": " it's", "start": 3662.2, "end": 3662.46, "probability": 0.9268758594989777}, {"word": " not", "start": 3662.46, "end": 3662.68, "probability": 0.9661070704460144}, {"word": " as", "start": 3662.68, "end": 3663.02, "probability": 0.6484668850898743}, {"word": " though", "start": 3663.02, "end": 3663.16, "probability": 0.968410074710846}, {"word": " there's", "start": 3663.16, "end": 3663.44, "probability": 0.9657537341117859}, {"word": " a", "start": 3663.44, "end": 3663.68, "probability": 0.9075502753257751}, {"word": " unanimity.", "start": 3663.68, "end": 3664.26, "probability": 0.9979295432567596}, {"word": " And", "start": 3664.86, "end": 3664.94, "probability": 0.8926796317100525}, {"word": " in", "start": 3664.94, "end": 3665.18, "probability": 0.9803425669670105}, {"word": " this", "start": 3665.18, "end": 3665.34, "probability": 0.9996501207351685}, {"word": " particular", "start": 3665.34, "end": 3665.6, "probability": 0.9994248151779175}, {"word": " case", "start": 3665.6, "end": 3665.96, "probability": 0.9997026324272156}, {"word": " it", "start": 3665.96, "end": 3666.12, "probability": 0.14598774909973145}, {"word": " seems", "start": 3666.12, "end": 3666.28, "probability": 0.9987145662307739}, {"word": " to", "start": 3666.28, "end": 3666.46, "probability": 0.9993492960929871}, {"word": " me", "start": 3666.46, "end": 3666.58, "probability": 0.9866884350776672}, {"word": " we're", "start": 3666.58, "end": 3666.78, "probability": 0.9655914902687073}, {"word": " on", "start": 3666.78, "end": 3666.92, "probability": 0.9993440508842468}, {"word": " the", "start": 3666.92, "end": 3667.04, "probability": 0.9997984766960144}, {"word": " right", "start": 3667.04, "end": 3667.18, "probability": 0.9991015195846558}, {"word": " side", "start": 3667.18, "end": 3667.42, "probability": 0.999478280544281}, {"word": " of", "start": 3667.42, "end": 3667.54, "probability": 0.9997345805168152}, {"word": " history,", "start": 3667.54, "end": 3667.84, "probability": 0.9976568222045898}, {"word": " and", "start": 3667.9, "end": 3668.22, "probability": 0.9977380037307739}, {"word": " I", "start": 3668.22, "end": 3668.38, "probability": 0.993739128112793}, {"word": " hope", "start": 3668.38, "end": 3668.54, "probability": 0.9990696310997009}, {"word": " we", "start": 3668.54, "end": 3669.42, "probability": 0.9917373061180115}, {"word": " prevail.", "start": 3669.42, "end": 3669.7, "probability": 0.9983470439910889}]}, {"id": 335, "seek": 365250, "start": 3672.32, "end": 3674.36, "text": " I hope so too. That's a great way to end.", "tokens": [51313, 314, 2911, 523, 1165, 13, 1320, 338, 257, 1049, 835, 284, 886, 13, 51463], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1537342071533203, "compression_ratio": 1.5238095238095237, "no_speech_prob": 0.08326585590839386, "words": [{"word": " I", "start": 3672.32, "end": 3672.76, "probability": 0.9348881244659424}, {"word": " hope", "start": 3672.76, "end": 3672.86, "probability": 0.9986535310745239}, {"word": " so", "start": 3672.86, "end": 3673.04, "probability": 0.997391939163208}, {"word": " too.", "start": 3673.04, "end": 3673.24, "probability": 0.8082306981086731}, {"word": " That's", "start": 3673.46, "end": 3673.64, "probability": 0.9943125545978546}, {"word": " a", "start": 3673.64, "end": 3673.72, "probability": 0.9997031092643738}, {"word": " great", "start": 3673.72, "end": 3673.82, "probability": 0.9995309114456177}, {"word": " way", "start": 3673.82, "end": 3673.98, "probability": 0.9998100399971008}, {"word": " to", "start": 3673.98, "end": 3674.12, "probability": 0.9996404647827148}, {"word": " end.", "start": 3674.12, "end": 3674.36, "probability": 0.9995046854019165}]}, {"id": 336, "seek": 365250, "start": 3675.64, "end": 3678.42, "text": " I will hand it back over to Chris. Are you ready, Chris?", "tokens": [51463, 314, 481, 1021, 340, 736, 625, 284, 5180, 13, 4231, 345, 3492, 11, 5180, 30, 51663], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.1537342071533203, "compression_ratio": 1.5238095238095237, "no_speech_prob": 0.08326585590839386, "words": [{"word": " I", "start": 3675.64, "end": 3675.94, "probability": 0.9761625528335571}, {"word": " will", "start": 3675.94, "end": 3676.22, "probability": 0.9970494508743286}, {"word": " hand", "start": 3676.22, "end": 3676.38, "probability": 0.999289870262146}, {"word": " it", "start": 3676.38, "end": 3676.48, "probability": 0.9990560412406921}, {"word": " back", "start": 3676.48, "end": 3676.62, "probability": 0.9991405010223389}, {"word": " over", "start": 3676.62, "end": 3676.84, "probability": 0.9992249011993408}, {"word": " to", "start": 3676.84, "end": 3677.1, "probability": 0.9983775615692139}, {"word": " Chris.", "start": 3677.1, "end": 3677.32, "probability": 0.9715508222579956}, {"word": " Are", "start": 3677.62, "end": 3677.72, "probability": 0.9780251979827881}, {"word": " you", "start": 3677.72, "end": 3677.8, "probability": 0.9996612071990967}, {"word": " ready,", "start": 3677.8, "end": 3677.96, "probability": 0.999431312084198}, {"word": " Chris?", "start": 3678.3, "end": 3678.42, "probability": 0.9973263740539551}]}, {"id": 337, "seek": 367842, "start": 3679.38, "end": 3679.98, "text": " Go ahead.", "tokens": [50413, 1514, 4058, 13, 50463], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.14850637357528895, "compression_ratio": 1.5078534031413613, "no_speech_prob": 0.1257769763469696, "words": [{"word": " Go", "start": 3679.38, "end": 3679.82, "probability": 0.04481250047683716}, {"word": " ahead.", "start": 3679.82, "end": 3679.98, "probability": 0.9857773184776306}]}, {"id": 338, "seek": 367842, "start": 3680.9, "end": 3696.44, "text": " I am. Thanks. Thanks, Dave and thanks everyone for this conversation. So I can sense that our audience still has some questions, and given that there are 216 of you still past the top of the hour so here's what I'd like to do I didn't buy any of you who are able to stick around", "tokens": [50463, 314, 716, 13, 6930, 13, 6930, 11, 9935, 290, 5176, 2506, 329, 428, 5273, 13, 1406, 314, 460, 2565, 326, 674, 5386, 991, 468, 617, 2683, 11, 290, 1813, 326, 612, 389, 26881, 286, 345, 991, 1613, 262, 1353, 286, 262, 1711, 523, 994, 338, 644, 314, 1549, 588, 284, 466, 314, 1422, 470, 2822, 597, 286, 345, 508, 389, 1498, 284, 4859, 1088, 51263], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.14850637357528895, "compression_ratio": 1.5078534031413613, "no_speech_prob": 0.1257769763469696, "words": [{"word": " I", "start": 3680.9, "end": 3680.9, "probability": 0.12981462478637695}, {"word": " am.", "start": 3680.9, "end": 3681.44, "probability": 0.919662356376648}, {"word": " Thanks.", "start": 3681.74, "end": 3681.82, "probability": 0.9853993654251099}, {"word": " Thanks,", 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And then on the next day, on January 20, come to our in-person again at 300 Funston in San Francisco, come to our film remix contest screening at the Internet Archive.", "tokens": [50363, 393, 287, 1160, 1954, 11, 351, 257, 7166, 2151, 13, 843, 788, 319, 262, 1306, 1110, 11, 319, 3269, 1160, 11, 1282, 284, 674, 287, 12, 6259, 757, 379, 5867, 11138, 3743, 287, 2986, 6033, 11, 1282, 284, 674, 2646, 34471, 8414, 14135, 379, 262, 4455, 20816, 13, 51213], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.09539170448596661, "compression_ratio": 1.348993288590604, "no_speech_prob": 0.22128590941429138, "words": [{"word": " or", "start": 3794.88, "end": 3795.1, "probability": 0.3329034745693207}, {"word": " in", "start": 3795.1, "end": 3795.28, "probability": 0.9640584588050842}, {"word": " 2023,", "start": 3795.28, "end": 3796.02, "probability": 0.9648704826831818}, {"word": " with", "start": 3796.22, "end": 3796.8, "probability": 0.9188171625137329}, {"word": " a", "start": 3796.8, "end": 3796.96, 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As for thank yous, a big thank you to our speakers to Peter, Pamela, for joining us today.", "tokens": [51063, 481, 3328, 281, 3053, 351, 257, 2792, 284, 326, 8296, 290, 883, 4133, 13, 1081, 329, 5875, 345, 82, 11, 257, 1263, 5875, 345, 284, 674, 11636, 284, 5613, 11, 43341, 11, 329, 9679, 514, 1909, 13, 51563], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.11733958485362293, "compression_ratio": 1.7103174603174602, "no_speech_prob": 0.08818238228559494, "words": [{"word": " will", "start": 3851.08, "end": 3851.36, "probability": 0.9786505699157715}, {"word": " receive", "start": 3851.36, "end": 3851.7, "probability": 0.9991374015808105}, {"word": " an", "start": 3851.7, "end": 3851.9, "probability": 0.998823344707489}, {"word": " email", "start": 3851.9, "end": 3852.22, "probability": 0.9952942728996277}, {"word": " with", "start": 3852.22, "end": 3852.52, "probability": 0.9970393776893616}, {"word": " a", "start": 3852.52, "end": 3852.7, "probability": 0.9905931353569031}, {"word": " link", "start": 3852.7, "end": 3852.86, "probability": 0.9996962547302246}, {"word": " to", "start": 3852.86, "end": 3853.06, "probability": 0.9995347261428833}, {"word": " that", "start": 3853.06, "end": 3853.24, "probability": 0.998985230922699}, {"word": " recording", "start": 3853.24, "end": 3853.68, "probability": 0.9992125034332275}, {"word": " and", "start": 3853.68, "end": 3853.86, "probability": 0.9790744185447693}, {"word": " those", "start": 3853.86, "end": 3854.04, "probability": 0.9984002709388733}, {"word": " resources.", "start": 3854.04, "end": 3854.64, "probability": 0.9993822574615479}, {"word": " As", "start": 3855.26, "end": 3855.4, "probability": 0.9818874597549438}, {"word": " for", "start": 3855.4, "end": 3855.54, "probability": 0.9845349788665771}, {"word": " thank", "start": 3855.54, "end": 3855.74, "probability": 0.9465264678001404}, {"word": " yous,", "start": 3855.74, "end": 3856.4, "probability": 0.9100497663021088}, {"word": " a", "start": 3856.54, "end": 3856.54, "probability": 0.7891278862953186}, {"word": " big", "start": 3856.54, "end": 3856.72, "probability": 0.998638927936554}, {"word": " thank", "start": 3856.72, "end": 3856.94, "probability": 0.9930028319358826}, {"word": " you", "start": 3856.94, "end": 3857.12, "probability": 0.998293936252594}, {"word": " to", "start": 3857.12, "end": 3857.34, "probability": 0.9904113411903381}, {"word": " our", "start": 3857.34, "end": 3857.56, "probability": 0.9994145631790161}, {"word": " speakers", "start": 3857.56, "end": 3858.06, "probability": 0.9956443309783936}, {"word": " to", "start": 3858.06, "end": 3858.46, "probability": 0.2809325158596039}, {"word": " Peter,", "start": 3858.46, "end": 3858.92, "probability": 0.945536196231842}, {"word": " Pamela,", "start": 3859.3, "end": 3859.48, "probability": 0.5444583892822266}, {"word": " for", "start": 3860.08, "end": 3860.34, "probability": 0.9970244765281677}, {"word": " joining", "start": 3860.34, "end": 3860.58, "probability": 0.9995924830436707}, {"word": " us", "start": 3860.58, "end": 3860.84, "probability": 0.999769389629364}, {"word": " today.", "start": 3860.84, "end": 3861.24, "probability": 0.9991207718849182}]}, {"id": 353, "seek": 386124, "start": 3861.24, "end": 3872.62, "text": " Just a fascinating conversation. Thanks also to Dave Hansen and Authors Alliance for co hosting our session, and to you our audience for your time and your enthusiasm today.", "tokens": [50363, 2329, 257, 13899, 5273, 13, 6930, 635, 284, 9935, 27667, 290, 46665, 10302, 329, 763, 13662, 674, 6246, 11, 290, 284, 345, 674, 5386, 329, 534, 640, 290, 534, 17131, 1909, 13, 50963], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.11391405473675645, "compression_ratio": 1.4367816091954022, "no_speech_prob": 0.6888468861579895, "words": [{"word": " Just", "start": 3861.24, "end": 3861.68, "probability": 0.1136167049407959}, {"word": " a", "start": 3861.68, "end": 3861.86, "probability": 0.984857439994812}, {"word": " fascinating", "start": 3861.86, "end": 3862.26, "probability": 0.9980314373970032}, {"word": " conversation.", "start": 3862.26, "end": 3863.02, "probability": 0.9930892586708069}, {"word": " Thanks", "start": 3863.98, "end": 3864.18, "probability": 0.5777789950370789}, {"word": " also", "start": 3864.18, "end": 3864.52, "probability": 0.9628503322601318}, {"word": " to", "start": 3864.52, "end": 3864.88, "probability": 0.9947894811630249}, {"word": " Dave", "start": 3864.88, "end": 3865.38, "probability": 0.9816526770591736}, {"word": " Hansen", "start": 3865.38, "end": 3865.7, "probability": 0.4264122247695923}, {"word": " and", "start": 3865.7, "end": 3866.08, "probability": 0.965743899345398}, {"word": " Authors", "start": 3866.08, "end": 3866.34, "probability": 0.8738292455673218}, {"word": " Alliance", "start": 3866.34, "end": 3866.68, "probability": 0.9504517316818237}, {"word": " for", "start": 3866.68, "end": 3867.04, "probability": 0.9660913348197937}, {"word": " co", "start": 3867.04, "end": 3867.26, "probability": 0.996556282043457}, {"word": " hosting", "start": 3867.26, "end": 3867.46, "probability": 0.06507062166929245}, {"word": " our", "start": 3867.46, "end": 3867.7, "probability": 0.997566819190979}, {"word": " session,", "start": 3867.7, "end": 3868.04, "probability": 0.999450147151947}, {"word": " and", "start": 3868.32, "end": 3868.72, "probability": 0.9971103668212891}, {"word": " to", "start": 3868.72, "end": 3868.96, "probability": 0.9937475919723511}, {"word": " you", "start": 3868.96, "end": 3869.18, "probability": 0.9538123607635498}, {"word": " our", "start": 3869.18, "end": 3869.38, "probability": 0.7219166159629822}, {"word": " audience", "start": 3869.38, "end": 3869.72, "probability": 0.9996668100357056}, {"word": " for", "start": 3869.72, "end": 3870.14, "probability": 0.9714664816856384}, {"word": " your", "start": 3870.14, "end": 3870.38, "probability": 0.9985039234161377}, {"word": " time", "start": 3870.38, "end": 3870.68, "probability": 0.9993839263916016}, {"word": " and", "start": 3870.68, "end": 3870.84, "probability": 0.9928863644599915}, {"word": " your", "start": 3870.84, "end": 3870.96, "probability": 0.9963880777359009}, {"word": " enthusiasm", "start": 3870.96, "end": 3871.58, "probability": 0.9996564388275146}, {"word": " today.", "start": 3871.58, "end": 3872.62, "probability": 0.7291541695594788}]}, {"id": 354, "seek": 386124, "start": 3873.2, "end": 3877.88, "text": " I'd like to just take a final note. 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Have a great day and safe and healthy holiday season.", "tokens": [51263, 6952, 345, 477, 13, 8192, 257, 1049, 1110, 290, 3338, 290, 5448, 9912, 1622, 13, 51563], "temperature": 0.0, "avg_logprob": -0.10621384779612224, "compression_ratio": 1.5027027027027027, "no_speech_prob": 0.03489212691783905, "words": [{"word": " Thank", "start": 3924.74, "end": 3924.82, "probability": 0.9967491626739502}, {"word": " you", "start": 3924.82, "end": 3924.98, "probability": 0.9989479184150696}, {"word": " all.", "start": 3924.98, "end": 3925.26, "probability": 0.9610946178436279}, {"word": " Have", "start": 3925.88, "end": 3925.96, "probability": 0.9888452887535095}, {"word": " a", "start": 3925.96, "end": 3926.06, "probability": 0.9996808767318726}, {"word": " great", "start": 3926.06, "end": 3926.2, "probability": 0.9980452060699463}, {"word": " day", "start": 3926.2, "end": 3926.52, "probability": 0.9993265867233276}, {"word": " and", "start": 3926.52, "end": 3926.92, "probability": 0.9415803551673889}, {"word": " safe", "start": 3926.92, "end": 3927.4, "probability": 0.7798559665679932}, {"word": " and", "start": 3927.4, "end": 3927.86, "probability": 0.9876877665519714}, {"word": " healthy", "start": 3927.86, "end": 3928.38, "probability": 0.9983683228492737}, {"word": " holiday", "start": 3928.38, "end": 3928.84, "probability": 0.9900043606758118}, {"word": " season.", "start": 3928.84, "end": 3929.34, "probability": 0.9992677569389343}]}], "language": "en"}}